Born to Learn - Latest Comments in More feedback on Digital Credentials

Re: More feedback on Digital Credentials

Unknown — Sun, 14 Feb 2010 07:23:54 -0000

im a MCP,MCTS and MCSA but NO certificate to my name which is why im extremely disappointed :(
This is plain unfair on microsoft's part!i always was a big fan of microsoft and all its products,but sorry to say - NOT ANY MORE..This silly environmental move seems to have cropped up only during the recession??if microsoft really needs funds they should increase the cost of the exam..but NOT deprive us the right of the report!!
The printout of the report looks soo fake!!(ordering a hardcopy is another mess)
i feel cheated having spent soo money spent on the certification but nothing to prove!
i hereon plan to STOP taking microsoft certifications!
Regards
Unknown

Re: More feedback on Digital Credentials

Michael — Fri, 17 Jul 2009 10:54:53 -0000

if you want to cut costs why doesn't microsoft shrink the boxes their software comes in. I bought SQL developer software and was shocked at the size of the plastic box for one DVD.

I'm pretty angry about the digital certs as I think this should be an optional choice and not forced on people. A cert is something to be proud of and I shouldn't have to pay to get an optional cert sent to me as it should be included in the cost. Big own goal on Microsoft's part.

Re: More feedback on Digital Credentials

M.M.B — Wed, 08 Jul 2009 12:57:58 -0000

Wallet cards carbon footprint is nothing compared to cell phone recharge cards that are used throughout the world ...
Secondly digital form of certificates will have a biiger footprint in reprinting , downloading, and reprinting again and again ( since it is not an original why not print one whenever on wants to use it !)
Such a move will have a drastic increase on crabon footprint .. but the thing is that such a desicion might have been taken by morrons who sit in cublcles and now nothing about the real world and who think the world is flat and get their daily news from standup comedians ..
Shame !!!

Re: More feedback on Digital Credentials

me — Sat, 04 Jul 2009 19:07:10 -0000

BTW. Could you tell us what personal changes in MSL management were around 2006-2007. I would like to know names of people responsible of your current offer.

Re: More feedback on Digital Credentials

me — Sat, 04 Jul 2009 19:05:46 -0000

1. Servers aren't greener than plastic! Please stop arguing that.

2. MCTS/MCITP is failure without any value. All newcomers to MCP program still ask about MCSA/MCSE.

3. You have frauded people in 2007 and 2008.

4. You have stupid explanations for everything like MCTS not being MCP while being.

5. You get impressive negative feedback that you are ignoring and ignoring by saying it is "only small percentage of MCPs that don't like changes" lol.

6. You site is faulty all the time. Digital Business cards won't be better probably - so people without certs and plastic wallet will be doomed on interviews.

8. There is total mess with quality and types of your paper certs that will be even higher with "white boards" printers/ papers/signs variations.

7. I could write more, but what is the point if you have markeint @#$%$# answers for anything you get.

8. I can hardly imagine that MCP might be even worse, I'm afraid soon you will prove it can.

Re: More feedback on Digital Credentials

Ken Rosen — Thu, 02 Jul 2009 16:32:05 -0000

Dan, thanks for the long, thoughtful feedback. I'm sorry that you took my comments personally--that was not my intent, and I certainly didn't have any specific comments in mind (and stated so) when I made my "wait until you bash it" comment. Wasn't frustrated at all, more bemused by some of the conclusions that were leapt to.

One of the challenges of on-line communications is getting one's tone to come across the way one intends it to, and given how often I post here and how many readers we have, I'm bound to screw it up once in a while. So I apologize for the offense--it was not at all intended.

To respond to your more specific comments:

When I said there's not much point in pursusing the conversation further if you don't believe we have positive intent, it was certainly *not* a "go to hell" message. It was what I beleive to be a truthful statement: there's really no way for two sides to come together through written discussion when one side doubts the others truthfulness and intent. You can't win trust through arguing, wouldn't you agree, Dan?

As to why we're still packaging our products the way we do, we're making strides there too: http://news.cnet.com/8301-1...

But I think your overall point is that you feel we're singling out MCPs. The truth is that Microsoft has thousands of groups and hundreds of businesses, and we all focus on different products, programs and audiences. Why is Microsoft focusing on certificates when there are bigger environmental fish to fry? Because my team has nothing to do with Windows packaging--we can only affect our learning products. So we do what we can within our sphere of influence and trust that our colleagues are doing the same. Hope that makes sense to you.

Moving on to the wallet card questions: yes, I switched the discusion to "going secure," as that's what those particular comments were focused on. (This thread was in response to feedback from readers)

I understand the point you make about ID cards, but those cards typically also have magnetic strip that are read by ATMs, security badge readers, etc. that verify their authenticity. There's no way to do that with plastic MCP cards. Hence my statements. :-)

And I'm not advocating that anyone print the wallet cards--unlike student IDs, militar IDs, workplace IDs, these cards are not needed for physical access to facilties--better to keep them on-line so that they can serve to truly authenticate one's credentials.

In fact, I think the remainder of your questions and comments seem imply that you think we're recommending that you guys print out your certificates and wallet cards. I'm suggesting: don't.

If you want to display your certificates for pride reasons (as I do), print them and hang them in your office. But if you are primarily concerned with proving your credentials, use the digital wallet cards--they are the only true way to prove your credentials.

Relying on certificates--printed or digital--is not wise. We'll do our best to inform employers of this, and it will undoubtedly take some time. In the meantime, if you are questioned by an employer, you can certainly point them toward our website where we can verify your credentials.

So to sum up:

1) Our official position is that certificates and wallet cards cannot be trusted as proof of one's certifications.

2) The only proof of certification that we stand behind is the on-line transcript (through your transcript sharing ID and code) and upcoming virtual business cards

3) If you still believe it's important to bring certificates to a job interview, you can print out your certificates to do so.

4) If you don't believe that your print-at-home or print-at-printshop certificates will look acceptable to an employer, you can order a certificate from our fulfillment vendor as you have in the past, but it will now cost a shipping and handling fee.

Would it help, Dan, if we had a page on our website that clearly spelled all of this out for employers?

Re: More feedback on Digital Credentials

Dan — Thu, 02 Jul 2009 16:00:38 -0000

To Quote Ken "But I’d like to propose that you wait until you see and use the product before you bash it."

Being a poster on the original blog thread, I don't overly appreciate the fact that my feedback has been termed a "bash". Whats the point of annoucing things if you dont want 'real' feedback? And what is the point of asking for feedback if you response is basically going to be 'wait til its happened'?

Pretty poor form and kind of sounds like you're a bit frustrated?

Still, lets go through the MS side of story, and try not to be as condescending as they were...

"1) If you don’t believe me when I say that we are genuinely concerned with improving our environmental impact, then we have a trust issue, and frankly, there’s not much point in pursuing the conversation further. "

Thats a VERY poor answer! In other words, if you dont 'agree', go to hell!

The fact remains as I and numerous people have pointed out, that this 'Green Revolution' has targetted the relatively small percentage of MS costomers and products. If MS was really concerned with going green, why are you packaging commercial product in big, hard plastic cases (im sure MS make more of those plastic s/w cases than MCSE wallet cards)? What about the volumes of printed matter MS sells?

If MS was seriously looking at ways to cut its footprint, you'd have thought they would look at the LARGER contributors first (such as those plastic s/w cases that probably take 15,000 years to break down and use up oil resources); but no, that hasn't been done...

"2) If you believe that our paper/plastic solution was more environmentally friendly than our digital solution, I’d love to know—truthfully—how to verify that. "

I dont think anyone is arguing that this is the fact (although as one poster pointed out, ppl are going to have to print their certificate anyway, so the end result is most likley going to see the same amount of paper and ink used; MS will just be shifting who is doing the work!)

But if you look at the posts regarding this, I think you'll find that a lot of ppl were concerned as to why this initiative was targeting MCP's and etc, Alone!

As I mentioned above, if MS was serious about its footprint, why arent you working on OTHER areas, that obviously are more impacting that this... AGAIN I will refer you to the moulded plastic s/w cases!

"3) About the digital wallet cards–let’s be brutally honest, shall we:

Anything on paper is forgeable. There are any number of Internet sites out there that will produce authentic-looking certificates and wallet cards for you for a fee, without requiring you to prove your certification. If you’re going to argue that paper certificates and plastic cards are somehow more authentic than digital ones—or that they are more difficult to forge—you won’t find me to be a receptive audience, sorry. "

and

"Today there is one and only one way to truly prove your certifications to an employer: the transcript sharing tool. The problem with this tool, however, is that it’s fairly obscure and requires you to share an ID and password (which is perfectly safe but feels wrong nonetheless)."

I find this to be a bizarre assertation! So we're talking about 'Going Green', but now we have jumped to 'Going Secure'? Still, I will continue...

'Plastic' photo ID cards are used my the Military to gain access to military bases and secure area's inside those bases. They're used by Uni's to regulate access to secure research labs. Theyre used by our banks and road authorities for identification.

Heavy Paper card certificates are used by Colleges and Universities to prove completion of a Diploma or Degree or Doctorate program.

All these uses above are far more 'critical' than MS, but these organisations all all quite happy with the safety these provide.

How do you think we'd go if military personnel had to print their own ID's? Or you could print you own Licence? Or you had to print your own credit card?

What would an employer think when you show them your degree - printed on a home printer?

MSL always seemed to like to compare itself with higher learning (I'm on my Second Degree now, and I have three Diplomas also), but how do think it would be received if higher learning institution suddenly stopped issuing certificates on graduation? Or stopped issuing student cards?

And to address some more of your points:

"We will aggressively promote the use of these cards as the best way to verify an MCP’s credentials—both to MCPs and to hiring managers—and I fully expect that they will be the most value-reinforcing benefit in the MCP program. "

How's that? An education program involving printed matter? Or an email campaign, that will be swallowed by spam filters? What about those employers who may not have heard about this?

What happens when you have 2 MCSE's, equally qualified; one has nice, original MS certs and the other has home printed stuff. Which one is going to present better?

"Let me go even one step further: I don’t think the digital certificates are any better than the paper ones as far as authenticity goes. I personally have never and would never use my certificates to prove my certifications to a client or employer."

Thats a bit presumptuous... I think that simply means you've never been ASKED to provide certificates. I HAVE been asked to provide copies of certificates and instructed to bring my ORIGINALS to the interview.

My next comment is to ask how your thoughts on Authenticity are fair. YOU DONT THINK there is any difference in Authenticity, BUT you work for MS, you know the system intimately.... But again, what about those employers out there? What employer is NOT going to question the authenticity of a certificate printed at home?

Come on guys, its time to get real about this. In the REAL WORLD, when apply for a job, a lot of applicants supply copies of certicates as a package with an application, and then show up to the interview with originals...

MS is now asking us to COMPLICATE this... Now, instead of supplying a single package containing our Cisco, Citrix and MS certs, we need to supply Cisco and Citrix photocopies, then a disk containing our digital certs and card in leu of supplying a dodgy print out.

Then in the interview, we show off our nice, neat Cisco and Citrix certs and have to bring a laptop, so the interview board can look at out digital certs... (Because lets face it, few interviewers are going to be organised enough to check this stuff beforehand)...

So, I would urge MS to listen to those MANY MCP's who have responded. Think of it this way, in this country (Australia) one letter/email (or otherwise) to a politician is seen as representative of the thoughts and feelings of 1,500 people in the electorate... Now, if you apply that to the number of ppl I see responding here (RESPONDING, not BASHING), I would suggest you have a SIZABLE portion of the informed MCP community are not impressed by this decision.

Re: More feedback on Digital Credentials

Steve Bennett — Fri, 26 Jun 2009 08:29:07 -0000

Good post Jeremy. I'd also like to know why Microsoft's biggest flag wavers have been treated so badly by not being consulted about this. I'd also like to point out how out of propotion this carbon saving MUST be - that is, considering an individual's time, effort and cost spent obtaining just 1 welcome pack. You have to draw the green line somewhere, and Microsoft seem to have stepped way, way beyond it (as much to thier own detriment, I can imagine)

Re: More feedback on Digital Credentials

Ricardo Santos — Wed, 24 Jun 2009 15:16:30 -0000

Me, this seems to be going forever, but you haven't really added anything new the past couple of days, nor the responses to your comments. Maybe it's time you move this to a private (e)conversation?
There really is no point anymore, I think.

Re: More feedback on Digital Credentials

Marcelo Torres — Wed, 24 Jun 2009 15:04:19 -0000

I want participate!!
MCPD 3.5 from Colombia

Re: More feedback on Digital Credentials

Robert — Wed, 24 Jun 2009 14:05:45 -0000

Jeremy,
I could not have said it better!

Re: More feedback on Digital Credentials

Jerry — Wed, 24 Jun 2009 12:43:34 -0000

Good response Ken. I'm still concerned about serveral issues.

1.) That this move is off-loading MS' carbon footprint to other shoulders--we should assume that those who go to the trouble to order a kit are just as likely to go to the trouble to print. Assuming otherwise is counter intuitive.
2.) That if the MCT card follows suit MCTs will have a devil of a time printing the instructor guides at their local print shop or getting a discount at Borders Books.
3.) That waiting for the mail to arrive will forever loose its glamour.

Re: More feedback on Digital Credentials

Jeremy Redmond — Wed, 24 Jun 2009 12:13:08 -0000

You guys are just getting silly now. Ken just change everything to digital certificates, people can print them out if they want to. All I hear is a bunch of whining.

Re: More feedback on Digital Credentials

me — Wed, 24 Jun 2009 11:13:11 -0000

You have failed with understanding this analogy or if you haven't then Secret Service will knock to your door soon Ken. Think again how digital money are different from scans of dollars and scans of your certs.

Do you have any answer for my above entries about MS Frauding MCTS people in 2007 and 2008?

Re: More feedback on Digital Credentials

Ken Rosen — Wed, 24 Jun 2009 10:38:09 -0000

interesting analogy, me. as a matter of fact, that exact thing happened to us about 11 years ago! I haven't received a paycheck since then, instead I get a digital deposit into my bank account, and I use that money digitally as well... almost all my purchases are with my debit card or with paypal. however, I sometimes do print my money out at an atm, so I take your point. (oh and when I do get my money printed for me at an atm, I usually have to pay a fee for it. kind of bugged me at first... after all, it's my money that I worked hard for, so why should I have to pay more to print it? but I got used to it... I don't think about it that much anymore, because as a result of those fees, I rarely use cash)

Re: More feedback on Digital Credentials

me — Wed, 24 Jun 2009 10:02:40 -0000

Alice I guess the only way they could understand our opinions would be if they were announced 11 days before salary that due to go green policy they won't recive salary as in past. And now they will be given link to scans of dollars and they can print it in home. LOL

Re: More feedback on Digital Credentials

Alice — Tue, 23 Jun 2009 22:19:04 -0000

Oh, and now THIS. I just tried out the new digital certificate downloads. They look nicer than before (fixed the pink text at least), but I can only view/use the XPS versions!

The earlier version of the digital certificate downloads produced PDF files which were perfectly compatible/viewable with Acrobat 6!! But not anymore!

Now the new version of the cert downloads produces files which are only compatible with some newer version of Acrobat, which I can't safely upgrade to on my primary system because I have Acrobat Pro 6 and don't want to spend money buying a new version when this one still works fine for my needs, and can't safely install a newer version of Acrobat Reader without risking it making the older Acrobat Pro version malfunction from interference with shared files/settings.

PLEASE go back to the previous backwards-compatible PDFs. I'm sure there are HR people out there not using the latest versions too.

Re: More feedback on Digital Credentials

Alice — Tue, 23 Jun 2009 20:47:59 -0000

This all seems to go in one proverbial ear and out the other, but come on, MS should've at least let us pay for mailed wallet cards (and pins) in addition to the mailed certificates.

And we should've had 3-6 months notice before the implementation date of this benefits reduction, to give more people time to finish up their in-progress certifications with the benefits they'd been expecting when they started, instead of springing it on us like this.

Re: More feedback on Digital Credentials

Steve Bennett — Sun, 21 Jun 2009 05:51:08 -0000

Hi Ken, Although it looks like you have an answer for every concern, the fact is that the vast majority of the certified professionals here, including myself, still hate the idea of not automatically recieving our hard earned right of passage. If Microsoft wants to hold thier stance and ram it through anyway, it's nothing but a bad look. Imagine your favorite political party doing something like that - I doubt they would be the favorite for very long. The new digital wallet card system should be a value add, but it's clearly not a replacement - because there just isn't one, period.

Re: More feedback on Digital Credentials

mcitpx4 — Fri, 19 Jun 2009 19:37:44 -0000

Is Microsoft Certification Becoming Worthless?

Ken Rosen, in your follow up you state:

"On a deeply personal level, ...I do certainly realize why you’re irked, but hey, whatever saves the environment is fine by me."

I am glad it is fine by you. Unfortunately you are not really the customer for your certification products, are you? You are a spokesman for the company working to lower the cost of the program by ending lapel pins, certificates, wallet cards and anything physical associated with what used to be an important milestone for I.T. professionals...regardless of the effect on the actual value of the certification. It sounds as if going green is an attempt to ease Microsoft's conscience at what has happened to the 'MCSE' certification process as a whole – or maybe just change the focus of the criticism from the disappearing intangible benefits to the disappearing tangible benefits.

Remember, if Microsoft had not made several dozen lame 'mcts' certifications in an effort to boost certification revenue, the number of physical certificates mailed out would be an order of magnitude less. Should your slogan be 'back to being green' by taking all the worthless paper certificates away?

You also mention that these blogs may just be the disgruntled voicing their opinions:

"One thing I’ll caution: don’t assume that a string of negative comments on the blog constitutes a bad reception. With over 2 million MCPs out there, any change make is likely to upset some percentage of the community"

Sorry, but the community and industry have taken note:

http://gocertify.com/articl...

The article title is "Is Microsoft Certification Becoming Worthless?"

(I'll give you hint - the piece goes through a myriad of reasons why the answer is "yes" and that is back when you even got a lapel pin and real wallet card)

Instead of focusing on going green, should you not spend the effort on fixing a broken and failed certification system? Taking away the certificates and telling us to thank you for our new 'digital wallet cards' may actually be doing us a favor - Microsoft's current certification game is embarrassing and who wants to humiliate themselves further with a worthless certificate up on their wall showing that they played?

Re: More feedback on Digital Credentials

Radek — Fri, 19 Jun 2009 03:47:59 -0000

I think for each new MCP, printed certificates as well as ID Card are very important. This is about the feelings that they achieved something and also got something they can touch directly from Microsoft.

I think the main reason for all of this is not because of enviroment, but becouse of economy reasons. If the main reason will be in enviroment, there will be no futher fee for those, who would like to get printed certificates as today.

That's why I would like to see some compensations. The fee is the same as previous term (and still quite high in some country) and there is quite nothing they can get from MS as benefit.

Re: More feedback on Digital Credentials

Michael — Fri, 19 Jun 2009 03:21:36 -0000

I'm so sad for this.
I have ended my first exam(70-536) two days before.
I can't believe that i won't get a wallet card.

Re: More feedback on Digital Credentials

james — Fri, 19 Jun 2009 02:14:02 -0000

Trying to fool? If you have soft copy of certificates than you can print 100s or 1000s (modified/pirated)copy of that. Will it "GOooooinG Greeeen"? Thats why people says MS means Ctrl+Alt+Del="GOooooinG to Hell".
If realy want "Going Green" think carefully before you............!

Re: More feedback on Digital Credentials

Eric — Thu, 18 Jun 2009 19:45:18 -0000

I think that the digital wallet cards would probably go over well. I did like the look of them, and honestly does not use mine. I use the transcript sharing tool. I would like to reiterate the fact that this program would probably go over very well if you could work to get the certificates re-designed. I have several certifications hanging on my wall, but my MCSE’s are not there because they do not look like they should be certificates. I would gladly pay shipping, handling, and even a print fee for an improved certification. It is hard work, certificates should reflect that. In my opinion, it is not that employers will not take them seriously. This seems to be the going theme. For me anyway, there is a great feeling of accomplishment and pride when you receive that certificate. I do not feel like I have actually accomplished the certification until I received the certificate. Microsoft needs to also consider that this green effort may save some trees, but it takes away some of the Microsoft pride. I would also like to be part of the pilot for the wallet cards.

Re: More feedback on Digital Credentials

Danny — Tue, 16 Jun 2009 13:25:53 -0000

I would love to help beta test the digital cards and certificates! I can't wait to see the final version!