2) Sign of the person that wasn't CEO when Cert was achieved.
3) Lack of Charter Member Certs.
April
· 6 months ago
Yes, We sure can print a full bleed version. My newest HP printer will do this, or any 'borderless' photo printer could be used, along with the appropriate paper. I think it would look much nicer. If a borderless version is ever posted, I'll even help you print yours:)
Peter Read
· 6 months ago
I must admit, as sad as it sounds, point 3 'upsets' me slightly.
* ok I'm not about to go on a killing spree over it, but what's the point if you can't verify the status?
Richard Hooper
· 6 months ago
My printer can print right up to the edge. They look so good on photo paper!
I would love for you to get rid of the white boarder or at least have 2 different ones. one with and one with out.
thanks for the feedback!
hoops
Wayne
· 6 months ago
I'm gonna have trim them no matter what you do to them, so why bother?
me
· 6 months ago
You need good paper trimmer and you will end with non standard size. Trimmer won't fix Ballmer signature and Charter Member.
eliashan
· 6 months ago
Like others wrote above, nowadays there are hundreds of home printers out there that can perfectly print borderless copies of the certificates; you might have to reconsider the ugly white border.
Also, what's with the Charter Members? I've achieved several of my certifications at the early stage and my printed certificates proved that with the "Charter Member" ribbon. Why is it so difficult to port this to digital?
Pedro Sayanda
· 6 months ago
Charter member is a big issue for me , and yes i think you should supply full-bleed versions as well , let the MCP choose .
Ken Rosen (Microsoft)
· 6 months ago
Okay, then, I'll see if we can get the ball rolling quickly on the full-bleed versions.
As for Steve Ballmer's signature, he was the CEO when each and every still-available certification (and still available certificate) was released, so I don't think there's an anachronism here. :-)
I answered the charter member question on another thread, but to summarize: we've never offered charter certificates for re-order... those were always a very limited print run, and they were a marketing benefit for the first x individuals who earned them.
We don't even track who earned them--there's nothing in your transcript that indicates charter member--so we wouldn't know how to make them appropriately available in digital form. Hopefully you guys have hung on to your paper copies.
MSLearningContinuesToGoDownhil
· 6 months ago
Here's an idea - admit that this whole thing has been handled horribly and mail us the professionally printed certificates that we've earned.
Of course, I've yet to see MSL ever actually fix anything - so I won't hold my breath.
Chris S.
· 6 months ago
MSL has done, and continues to do a wonderful job. Please don't let a very, very small number of nay-sayers sway your vaules. Go green and continue to move MSL forward! Thank you, Ken Rosen and team.
Steven R. McEvoy
· 6 months ago
Is there a reason the PDF's are so large? I have a digital portfolio that is almost 30 pages that is about the size of 2 of these, and it includes much more?
I don't feel as negatively as some and have been lurking for a while, but I have to speak up. Chris S - are you kidding? You must not have been here very long. Microsoft Learning has made a long string of blunders and continues to do so!
They may have the best of intentions with this "going green" thing. If this were the first, second of eleventh time they've taken benefits away, I don't think people would care as much. Every year they find a reason to eliminate something else.
The continue to set low expectations and then totally fail to meet them.
EPIC FAIL
Ken Rosen (Microsoft)
· 6 months ago
Dave, I'm curious: to which removed benefits are you referring? I'm not aware of any benefits having been removed in years.
Kevin
· 6 months ago
You know, there is often times a tradeoff that people need to consider. As has been pointed out many times, the exam fees for MCP exams hasn't changed in a long time, even though Cisco, Novell, CompTIA, and other organizations have been increasing their fees. Once inflation has been accounted for, the exams have actually gotten cheaper (in terms of real cost) over the past 8 years.
Of course that's a bit of a specious argument, since the actual dollar figure has remained constant. But that constant dollar figure does represent less purchasing power today than it did 8 years ago. To expect the level of benefits to not change at all without some increase in cost is pretty unrealistic.
Compare the cost of an MCP exam to other exams, like those offered by CompTIA. CompTIA exams run from $180-$260 for a single exam, as opposed to Microsoft's $125 for all MCP exams. And the CompTIA exams offer much less of a benefit. With CompTIA you get one test, one certificate, and you have to pay for additional copies. You can't download digital copies of your certificates. There never have been CompTIA wallet cards, let alone digital wallet cards, and the certifications themselves are largely useless in the job market.
I'm frankly quite surprised that people are upset about changes in benefits given the price stability. But I suppose there's always someone who will complain about something.
me_do_not_believe_you
· 6 months ago
Compare prices of all exams needed to achieve certificate. While you are right than signle MCP exam is cheaper than Cisco or CompTIA, you need to remember than for example MCSE means at least 7 exams.
Rob Hagman
· 6 months ago
Ken,
About your earlier comment about the Charter Member certs,
Does that mean that there will no future Charter Member Certs, or will those limited run certs still be printed and send the old way, if you achieve them ?
Rob.
Kevin
· 6 months ago
me_do_not_believe_you, you're making two flawed assumptions there:
1. You are assuming that every person taking Microsoft exams is working towards a 7-exam cert (MCSE) as opposed to a 5-exam cert (MCITP:EA), three-exam cert (MCITP:SA), or a two-exam cert (MCITP:DBA 2008 and others) or a one-exam cert (MCTS).
2. You are assuming that the value of a single certification is the same regardless of the material that it covers. In other words, you're equating an MCSE certification (7 exams) with a CompTIA certification (1 or 2 exams) or a Cisco certification (1 or 2 exams) and saying that they should cost the same because you only get one certificate at the end of it. This is very clearly not the case.
Ken Rosen (Microsoft)
· 6 months ago
Rob, I don't think we've done charter member certs in a while--there's really no specific policy on it. It's basically a marketing decision: if we want to spark uptake of a new certification, we offer charter certificates as a way to boost initial interest.
So in other words, the answer to whether we'll ever do them again is: maybe. :-)
me
· 6 months ago
Kevin you are putting words into my mouth that I haven't said. Read my previous post one more time and do not assume what I assume.
1. MCSE was an "example" it wasn't "every person".
2. I've mentioned that there are MCP (MCTS) exams also.
So I don't see a single point in your post.
Kevin
· 6 months ago
I don't see the point to your original post either. It seems like you're trying to say that even though individual exams cost less with Microsoft, the overall cost of the certificate is higher and therefore the benefits should be greater.
What I'm saying is that there are ranges of Microsoft certs, some of which cost $125 to test for, while other's cost $875. You obviously picked the most expensive certification because it skews the argument in your favor. I was merely pointing out that there are other Microsoft certifications that are much less expensive than Cisco/CompTIA/Novell exams and in some cases more valuable (especially compared to CompTIA).
Some certifications are much more valuable/useful than others. Those certifications usually end up costing more, but in all but the most extreme cases (MCSE) Microsoft's certifications are either cheaper or on part with other IT certifications.
If you wanted to get really crazy, you could compare the cost of an MCSE ($875 in exams) to the cost of a VMware VCP (over $3500, since you cannot earn the certification without first attending the course). Of course, then you'd probably want to complain that the MCM costs over $18,000 to earn.
me
· 6 months ago
kevin: I have asked to "Read my previous post one more time and do not assume what I assume." Unfortunately You have done it again by "It seems like you’re trying to say ". Please read my words only and do not assume or guess what I'am trying to say. I'm not native speaker as you have probably guessed allready:)
I have never said that MS exams are expensive. For me prices are changing all the time - in last two-three years including rabate prices of MCP exams were changing even 6x for me! I guess it is similar to other people that do not earn in $ are were able to sign into 71(student) exams. Price doesn't matter for me as much - my time and work does. For time and work spent I would like to get certificate that is valuable on the market. Benefits like Wallet Cards are nice inexpensive reward for my work not for my dollars. I could pay for it.
Your last post makes sense in a part were you are comparing all expenses needed for achieving certificate. From me I could add that MS has really great and free materials for study. From my point of view there is one additional drawback with multiple exams for one cert - I have to travel quite long (in European) terms to nearest Prometric. It takes time and money.
Warwick James
· 6 months ago
Just to clarify the misunderstanding that Charter exams 'haven't been offered in a while' -
Just looking through my history of sent certificates (via the MCP portal), I can see the most recent ones being for Windows Server 2008 Enterprise Administrator and Server Administrator, several for Windows Vista, and one for ISA 2006.
All, particularly Windows Server 2008, are recent products.
The first Windows 7 client exam beta-tested recently, and based on previous experiences, successful candidates would achieve 'Charter' for their efforts.
I always assumed this was time or number-based, and automated within the certification frame-work, rather than a marketing exercise.
True that the printable certificates that have been available online for ages via the Certificate Manager never reflect 'Charter' status - only the first physical REQUESTED kit would do that. But obviously if the system is already aware that a person is Charter, the digital system should be able to cope with this also.
In my case, I'm not really asking for the ability to retrospectively and repeatedly download my Charter certificates (although I still cannot see why this isn't possible, based on candidate number per TS exam), I'm concerned that the Charter initiative is being thrown out with the bath-water.
We're having the ability to request PHYSICAL Charter certificates away, hence the ability to request digital Charter certificates should be there instead.
Just my 2 dollars...
Don't take it personally - it sounds like the project was badly scoped from the get-go.
Ken Rosen (Microsoft)
· 6 months ago
Hey, Warwick: you're right! And here's where it gets complicated. :-)
Yes, it seems like we did offer charter certs for the WS2008 certs et al, but it appears that it was accidentally automatic (meaning that somewhere along the line it became an assumption that because we *had* been doing them in select circumstances that we would *always* do them. (Surprised us in the marketing team, since it wasn't supposed to work that way!)
To make matters worse--most of the ones you mentioned shouldn't have been "charter" certificates anyway; if anything, the should have been "early adopter" certs ("charter" is for a brand new certification, like MCITP or MCTS; "early adopter" is for a new version of the same certification, like the many different flavors of MCTS).
It all gets very confusing, even to us, which is why we decided to be selective about when we offer them--and that decision had/has nothing to do with our move to digital certificates.
As for what the system does or doesn't know--we don't have records (to the best of my understanding) of who earned a charter certificate; you are correct that we can tell what SKU we fulfilled through the mail, but that's not associated to a certification status. The digital certificate site keys off of the certs you've earned, not the kits you were shipped, so there's a disconnect there.
In any event--we're definitely not throwing out either baby or bathwater. We very well may offer charter certifictes in the future, but for now there are none imminent.
james
· 6 months ago
Trying to fool? If you have soft copy of certificates than you can print 100s or 1000s (modified/pirated)copy of that. Will it “GOooooinG Greeeen”? Thats why people says MS means Ctrl+Alt+Del=”GOooooinG to Hell”. If realy want “Going Green” think carefully before you…………!
Michael
· 6 months ago
Yes, Please supply the bleed version as well. (Good for online viewing)
Bing
· 6 months ago
Ken, please do supply the bleed version.
Brian Jones
· 6 months ago
Just to put a spanner in the works, My MCITP - Enterprise support digital cert has charter member at the top, but neither of my MCTS's do.
Alice
· 6 months ago
Brian - Wow, you're right, mine are like that too! So it seems there really is no excuse for the digital certs not matching on all Charter Member certs.
Alice
· 6 months ago
I noticed that the list on the MCP site of what welcome-kits you've previously ordered indicates which kits were mailed to you as 'Charter Member' kits. So they absolutely do have records of who got which 'Charter Member' certs, they just don't include it in the transcript.
MCSE 2003
· 5 months ago
Most of my original certs are signed by Bill Gates. The new ones show up as Stephen Ballmer. This just makes them seem like even less of an original - the fact that they aren't even signed by the same person makes it all feel so artificial, and to me is another example of how badly planned and unprofessional this decision is. I agree with most of the the other comments - you'd be hard pressed to find professionals in any industry that would go along with this kind of a let down. The whole thing is so wrong in so many ways, it's hard to believe it got anywhere near alpha.
Jessica
· 5 months ago
The white border is very ugly. I am very disappointed that Microsoft decided to stop offering a free hard copy of our certifications.
Soup
· 5 months ago
Not all of us owns a printer, not to mention a borderless photo printer that can print A4 size, or a proper paper trimmer other than scissor.
All Comments
1) White border
2) Sign of the person that wasn't CEO when Cert was achieved.
3) Lack of Charter Member Certs.
We sure can print a full bleed version. My newest HP printer will do this, or any 'borderless' photo printer could be used, along with the appropriate paper. I think it would look much nicer. If a borderless version is ever posted, I'll even help you print yours:)
* ok I'm not about to go on a killing spree over it, but what's the point if you can't verify the status?
I would love for you to get rid of the white boarder or at least have 2 different ones. one with and one with out.
thanks for the feedback!
hoops
Also, what's with the Charter Members? I've achieved several of my certifications at the early stage and my printed certificates proved that with the "Charter Member" ribbon. Why is it so difficult to port this to digital?
As for Steve Ballmer's signature, he was the CEO when each and every still-available certification (and still available certificate) was released, so I don't think there's an anachronism here. :-)
I answered the charter member question on another thread, but to summarize: we've never offered charter certificates for re-order... those were always a very limited print run, and they were a marketing benefit for the first x individuals who earned them.
We don't even track who earned them--there's nothing in your transcript that indicates charter member--so we wouldn't know how to make them appropriately available in digital form. Hopefully you guys have hung on to your paper copies.
Of course, I've yet to see MSL ever actually fix anything - so I won't hold my breath.
Portfolio
They may have the best of intentions with this "going green" thing. If this were the first, second of eleventh time they've taken benefits away, I don't think people would care as much. Every year they find a reason to eliminate something else.
The continue to set low expectations and then totally fail to meet them.
EPIC FAIL
Of course that's a bit of a specious argument, since the actual dollar figure has remained constant. But that constant dollar figure does represent less purchasing power today than it did 8 years ago. To expect the level of benefits to not change at all without some increase in cost is pretty unrealistic.
Compare the cost of an MCP exam to other exams, like those offered by CompTIA. CompTIA exams run from $180-$260 for a single exam, as opposed to Microsoft's $125 for all MCP exams. And the CompTIA exams offer much less of a benefit. With CompTIA you get one test, one certificate, and you have to pay for additional copies. You can't download digital copies of your certificates. There never have been CompTIA wallet cards, let alone digital wallet cards, and the certifications themselves are largely useless in the job market.
I'm frankly quite surprised that people are upset about changes in benefits given the price stability. But I suppose there's always someone who will complain about something.
About your earlier comment about the Charter Member certs,
Does that mean that there will no future Charter Member Certs, or will those limited run certs still be printed and send the old way, if you achieve them ?
Rob.
1. You are assuming that every person taking Microsoft exams is working towards a 7-exam cert (MCSE) as opposed to a 5-exam cert (MCITP:EA), three-exam cert (MCITP:SA), or a two-exam cert (MCITP:DBA 2008 and others) or a one-exam cert (MCTS).
2. You are assuming that the value of a single certification is the same regardless of the material that it covers. In other words, you're equating an MCSE certification (7 exams) with a CompTIA certification (1 or 2 exams) or a Cisco certification (1 or 2 exams) and saying that they should cost the same because you only get one certificate at the end of it. This is very clearly not the case.
So in other words, the answer to whether we'll ever do them again is: maybe. :-)
1. MCSE was an "example" it wasn't "every person".
2. I've mentioned that there are MCP (MCTS) exams also.
So I don't see a single point in your post.
What I'm saying is that there are ranges of Microsoft certs, some of which cost $125 to test for, while other's cost $875. You obviously picked the most expensive certification because it skews the argument in your favor. I was merely pointing out that there are other Microsoft certifications that are much less expensive than Cisco/CompTIA/Novell exams and in some cases more valuable (especially compared to CompTIA).
Some certifications are much more valuable/useful than others. Those certifications usually end up costing more, but in all but the most extreme cases (MCSE) Microsoft's certifications are either cheaper or on part with other IT certifications.
If you wanted to get really crazy, you could compare the cost of an MCSE ($875 in exams) to the cost of a VMware VCP (over $3500, since you cannot earn the certification without first attending the course). Of course, then you'd probably want to complain that the MCM costs over $18,000 to earn.
I have never said that MS exams are expensive. For me prices are changing all the time - in last two-three years including rabate prices of MCP exams were changing even 6x for me! I guess it is similar to other people that do not earn in $ are were able to sign into 71(student) exams. Price doesn't matter for me as much - my time and work does. For time and work spent I would like to get certificate that is valuable on the market. Benefits like Wallet Cards are nice inexpensive reward for my work not for my dollars. I could pay for it.
Your last post makes sense in a part were you are comparing all expenses needed for achieving certificate. From me I could add that MS has really great and free materials for study. From my point of view there is one additional drawback with multiple exams for one cert - I have to travel quite long (in European) terms to nearest Prometric. It takes time and money.
Just looking through my history of sent certificates (via the MCP portal), I can see the most recent ones being for Windows Server 2008 Enterprise Administrator and Server Administrator, several for Windows Vista, and one for ISA 2006.
All, particularly Windows Server 2008, are recent products.
The first Windows 7 client exam beta-tested recently, and based on previous experiences, successful candidates would achieve 'Charter' for their efforts.
I always assumed this was time or number-based, and automated within the certification frame-work, rather than a marketing exercise.
True that the printable certificates that have been available online for ages via the Certificate Manager never reflect 'Charter' status - only the first physical REQUESTED kit would do that. But obviously if the system is already aware that a person is Charter, the digital system should be able to cope with this also.
In my case, I'm not really asking for the ability to retrospectively and repeatedly download my Charter certificates (although I still cannot see why this isn't possible, based on candidate number per TS exam), I'm concerned that the Charter initiative is being thrown out with the bath-water.
We're having the ability to request PHYSICAL Charter certificates away, hence the ability to request digital Charter certificates should be there instead.
Just my 2 dollars...
Don't take it personally - it sounds like the project was badly scoped from the get-go.
Yes, it seems like we did offer charter certs for the WS2008 certs et al, but it appears that it was accidentally automatic (meaning that somewhere along the line it became an assumption that because we *had* been doing them in select circumstances that we would *always* do them. (Surprised us in the marketing team, since it wasn't supposed to work that way!)
To make matters worse--most of the ones you mentioned shouldn't have been "charter" certificates anyway; if anything, the should have been "early adopter" certs ("charter" is for a brand new certification, like MCITP or MCTS; "early adopter" is for a new version of the same certification, like the many different flavors of MCTS).
It all gets very confusing, even to us, which is why we decided to be selective about when we offer them--and that decision had/has nothing to do with our move to digital certificates.
As for what the system does or doesn't know--we don't have records (to the best of my understanding) of who earned a charter certificate; you are correct that we can tell what SKU we fulfilled through the mail, but that's not associated to a certification status. The digital certificate site keys off of the certs you've earned, not the kits you were shipped, so there's a disconnect there.
In any event--we're definitely not throwing out either baby or bathwater. We very well may offer charter certifictes in the future, but for now there are none imminent.
If realy want “Going Green” think carefully before you…………!
Please supply the bleed version as well. (Good for online viewing)